Annoyed with "old" paganism

Where did I put that Grimoire?

What do you think of this post?

You make a good point
5
23%
You're a dumbass
17
77%
 
Total votes: 22

Anonymous

Historical Placement of Easter

Post by Anonymous » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:39 pm

Although Passover is a valid Jewish holiday, Christianity never adopted Passover. Christianity had no holidays until force-conversion was conducted in Europe. The very holiday of Easter you're describing, at least in the middle European sense, was stolen from those who worshipped the Anglo-Saxon Spring Goddess Ostara. In other cultures, such as Greek, Easter was taken from Spring Equinox. In the Norse countries, Easter replaced Springblot, in which the Goddess Idunn was honored. Christianity adopted these holidays, among others, to aid in the conversion of native peoples throughout Europe


While it is true that Christianity never adopted passover, they still base many of their holidays on the Jewish Calendar, of which the Torah/Biblical Old Testament is likely one of the more reliable sources. We know that passover takes place one week before the first full moon after the spring equinox. Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. These timings were not randomly scattered, or arranged as many modern practitioners claim, but an actual historical time relation that occurred.



Many scholars do believe that Christmas is misrepresented, but Easter is not demonstrably falsified.

User avatar
runewulf
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 820
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:38 pm
Location: USA
Zodiac: Scorpio
Contact:

Post by runewulf » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:33 pm

Whoa, old post to be coming back up, eh?



While it is true that some holidays can be linked to the Jewish Calendar, that does not change the fact that if you read the Papal Orders and Declarations from the time Kristjanity swept europe, you will find that various popes did in fact order several things, like placing churches on existing gathering and sacred spaces, using certain symbols and added holidays or changes holiday dates to be closer to pagan dates. Most of the Papal Orders actually stated that they were doing this to help "bring pagans to god".



On the flip side, you're initial post in this thread was wrong, as Gardner actually went public with "Wicca" in the 1950s not the mid 1960s. Also, Wicca is not the only pagan religion, nor even the only Witchcraft religion. It can easily be proven that a lot of Asatru and Odinists practice a fairly acurate reconstruction of their earlier faiths, as they were the last area to "convert" to kristjanity in the middle ages. Also, one can find many accounts, pre-kristjan, of pagan faiths. That these faiths are still practiced is a simple truth. I will agree that "Wicca" as in a neo-pagan practice derived in part or full from the teachings of Gerald Gardner is a fairly young religion, but based in part on older practices. However, that does not make it any less valid, or the older parts that it draws from. Also, lumping all pagans into "Wicca" is a very narrow view which is, quite simply, incorrect.



Many pagan faiths are far older than kristjan religions. And many Kristjan practices were derived from earlier pagan ones. Look at the kristjan records of the eras and they will show that. Add to that that, as do all things, a lot of kristjanity, as practiced today, is fairly young as well. It changes from time to time, just like all other practices. You better believe that the first kristjans were not "roman catholic", but they were the sect that initially gained power. They fractured into various orthodoxies, some servived, like russian and greek orthodoxies, some didn't. Protestants, church of england, etc. etc. are all evolutions of the kristjan faith. Therefore, in essence, the kristjan faiths practiced now days is not all that old either.



As a general rule, most "pagans" are polytheistic or nature, spirit, ancestor whorshippers, or a combination of the above. So, that would include most indigenous faiths world wide, as well as "wicca" and "neo-paganism"



Kennaz Wunjo,

RuneWulf
http://cajungypsy.blogspot.com

arewynn
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:23 am
Contact:

Post by arewynn » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:55 pm

after much thought and many replies i could come back with i stumbled across a online dictionary while looking for info for my sites newsletter that in many ways went to the heart of the issue for me with this reply.

and as i realise there are many witches who do not practice the craft as part of thier religion this speaks more to those who do.i doubt you would find any well read or practiced witch that does not have or has not applied a well studied history before even approaching the craft and those who have soon learn to undertake such studies you'll find the harshest critics or nieve defenders of wiccan history are early in practice or being taught by the same (not always but most often)very interesting thread by the way and i found some well thought out ans.




Wicca

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.





For the preChristian wiccas see Volva.



Wicca is a Neopagan religion founded by the British civil servant Gerald Gardner in the 1930s. Gardner claimed that the religion was a survival of matriarchal religions of pre-historic Europe, taught to him by a woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck. Many believe he invented it himself, drawing on such sources as Aradia: Gospel of the Witches by Charles G. Leland, Freemasonry and ceremonial magic; and while Clutterbuck certainly existed, Ronald Hutton concludes that she is unlikely to have been involved in Gardner's Craft activities.



The conventional wisdom is that the term wicca derives from the Indo-European root word of '*wic' & '*weik', meaning "to bend or shape." Another version of its origin is that it derives from an archaic/Old English word for wise, which is why Wicca is called the "Craft of the wise."



It appears that the word may be untraceable beyond the Old English period. Derivation from the Indo-European roots '*wic' or '*weik' is seemingly incorrect by phonological understanding.



The idea of primitive matriarchial religions was popular in Gardner's day, both among academics (e.g., Erich Neumann, Robert Graves, Margaret Murray) and amateurs. Later academics (e.g., JJ Bachofen, Carl Jung and Marija Gimbutas) continued research in this area, and later still Joseph Campbell, Ashley Montagu and others highly esteemed Gimbutas's work on the matrifocal cultures of Old Europe, but since her death her interpretation of the archaeological record has been called into question, and her theories of universal female deity are no longer considered credible in the mainstream. Some academics carry on research in this area (consider the 2003 World Congress on Matriachal Studies), and many amateurs are enthusiastic about it, but most academics hold serious reservations.



Wicca is a subset of the larger umbrella religious term "Paganism" or Neopaganism. Since its founding, various related Wiccan traditions have evolved, the original being Gardnerian Wicca, which is the name of the tradition that follows the specific beliefs and practices established by Gerald Gardner.





Table of contents [showhide]

1 Beliefs and Practices



2 Wiccan Traditions



3 Morality



4 Wicca vs. Witchcraft









Beliefs and Practices

Most Wiccans worship two deities, the Goddess and the God sometimes known as the Horned God. Some traditions such as the Dianic Wiccans mainly worship the Goddess; the God plays either no role, or a diminished role, in Dianism.



Wiccans celebrate eight main holidays: four cross-quarter days called Samhain, Beltane, Imbolc (or Imbolg or Oimelc) and Lammas (or Lughnasadh), as well as the solstices, Litha and Yule, and equinoxes, Ostara (or Eostar or Eostre) and Mabon (see Wheel of the Year). They also hold Esbats, which are rituals held at the full and new moon.



The names are of ancient Germanic or Celtic holidays held around the same time; ritual observations may include mixtures of those holidays as well as others celebrated at the same time in other cultures.



Some Wiccans join groups called covens, though others work alone and are called "solitaries." Some solitaries do, however, attend "gatherings" and other community events, but reserve their spiritual practices (Sabbats, Esbats, spell-casting, worship, magickal work, etc.) for when they are alone. Some Wiccans work with a community without being part of a coven.



Wiccans weddings can be called "bondings," "joinings," or "eclipses" but are most commonly called "handfastings." Some Wiccans observe an ancient Celtic practice of a trial marriage for a year and a day, which some Traditions hold should be contracted on Lammas (Lughnasadh), although this is far from universal.



A much sensationalized aspect of Wicca, particularly in Gardnerian Wicca, is that some Wiccans practice skyclad (naked).



Many Wiccans use a special set of altar tools in their rituals; these can include a broom (besom), cauldron, Chalice (goblet), wand, Book of Shadows, altar cloth, athame (personal knife), altar knife, boline, candles, and/or incense. Representations of the God/Goddess are often also used, which may be direct, representative, or abstract. Aspurgers are sometimes also used.



There are different thoughts in Wicca regarding the Elements. Some hold to the earlier Greek conception of the classical elements (air, fire, water, earth), while others recognize five elements: earth, air, water, fire, and spirit (akasha). In either case, these are the elements of nature that symbolize different places, emotions, objects, and natural energies and forces. For instance, crystals and stones are objects of the element earth, and seashells are objects of the water element. Each of the four cardinal elements, air, fire, water and earth, are commonly assigned a direction and a color:





Air: east, yellow

Fire: south, red

Water: west, blue

Earth: north, green

Elemental, directional correspondences, and colors may vary between traditions, however. It is common in the southern hemisphere, for instance, to associate the element fire with north (the direction of the equator) and earth with south (the direction of the nearest polar area.) Some Wiccan groups also modify the religious calendar to reflect local seasonal changes; for instance, in Australia Samhain might be celebrated on April 30th, and Beltane on October 31st to reflect the southern hemisphere's autumn and spring seasons.





Wiccan Traditions

There are many traditions, sub-traditions, and lineages of Wicca; some of the more well-known are Gardnerian Wicca, Alexandrian Wicca, Dianic Wicca, Seax-Wica and Faery Wicca. Also worth mentioning is the Feri Tradition, though this is not always considered Wiccan.



A generally accepted and informative book describing the various "paths" within the American pagan community is Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today.





Morality

Wiccan morality is ruled according to the Wiccan Rede, which (in part) states "An it harm none, do what ye will." ("An" is an archaic word meaning "if.") This very simple code is central to the understanding that personal responsibility, rather than a religious authority, is where moral structure resides.



Many Wiccans also promote the Law of Threefold Return, or the idea that anything that one does may be returned to them threefold. In other words, good deeds are magnified back to the doer, but so are ill deeds.



Some Wiccans also follow, or at least consider, a set of 161 laws often referred to as Lady Sheba's Laws. Some find these rules to be outdated and counterproductive.



For a summary of Wiccan views on homosexuality, see Neopagan views of homosexuality.





Wicca vs. Witchcraft

Though sometimes used interchangeably, "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" are not necessarily the same thing. The confusion comes, understandably, because both practitioners of Wicca and practitioners of Witchraft are called witches. In addition, many, but not all, Wiccans practice witchcraft and vice versa.



Wicca refers to the religion; the worship of the God & Goddess (or just Goddess), and the Sabbat and Esbat rituals.



Witchcraft, on the other hand, is considered a craft, and is sometimes called "The Craft." Witchcraft usually refers to the casting of spells and the practice of magick (the use of the "k" is to separate the term from stage magic).



Practicing witchcraft requires no belief in specific gods or goddesses and is a learned skill, not a spiritual path. There are other Pagan Witches, "Christian Witches," "Buddhist Witches," etc. who also practice witchcraft.



The distinction between the two is not clear cut. There is crossover between the Pagan/Neopagan religions and Witchcraft (for example: the mention of Goddesses in spells, and the performance of spells during Sabbat rituals). However, the differences mentioned above are the general distinctions made between the two terms.



Note there is a distiction between high magick (ceremonial, ritualistic magick) and low magick (Witchcraft, Voodoo, etc.).



The history of Wicca is a much debated topic. Generally, it is believed that Wicca is a modern invention inspired by the old Pagan religions, following the thesis of Dr. Margaret Murray. There is good evidence, however, that while the ritual side of Wicca is undeniably styled after late Victorian era occultism, the spiritual side is inspired by the old Pagan faiths, with Buddhist, and Hindu influences.





Gardner probably had access to few traditional Pagan rites and the prevailing theory is that many of his rites were the result of his expounding on the works of Aleister Crowley. Note, for example, the similarity between Gardner's "An it harm none, do what ye will" and Crowley's Thelemic "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, Love is the law, love under will."

It is important to the understanding of Wicca to realize that while Wicca as we understand it is modern, both the practice of magick and the worship of a Mother Goddess and a God or Horned God are ancient. It would be fair to say Gardner merely took the idea and ran with it. His claims that Wicca was the "Old Religion" are false, and probably has hindered, rather than helped, Wicca gain widespread acceptance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca[/quote]

PapaCoyotesGirl
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Los Angeles, California
Contact:

Post by PapaCoyotesGirl » Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:50 am

the majority of pagan holidays are actually harvest holidays that may or may not have been attached to non-abrahamic faith practice at some point in time. the holidays themselves are in fact older than the christian church but not necessarily older than abrahamic religion (since judaism is an abrahamic faith practice as well) but their practice was almost entirely seen amongst rural people such as farmers.



i do get annoyed when people take old folk practices and view them through the lense of modern sensibility. the rural holidays were celebrated mostly to help keep the calendar and they are primarily european in origin. and they did not necessarily have all this meaning attached to them. for many of the "original pagans" they were just celebrations meant to say things like "YAY! The winter is ending! Now we don't have to be cold!" or "Awesome! Time to go have sex in the fields!" which, by the way, was one of the more popular methods of celebrating the spring rites and is the basis for that silly song Greensleaves.



"kristjanity"



woah, and what is with the intentional misspelling? do we really want to look like disrespectful children? It is Christianity because it was founded on the teaches of Jesus the Christ. You may dislike their church but have some class, seriously.

User avatar
runewulf
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 820
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:38 pm
Location: USA
Zodiac: Scorpio
Contact:

Post by runewulf » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:48 am

First off, Kristjan is the nordic spelling of the word. If you don't like it, that's your point of view.



Secondly, I agree to some extent with the fact that a lot of pagan festivals were more simple than are often made out to be now days, but not all of them by any means. Read tacitus and cesar for a broader point of view.



Thirdly, there is absolutely no historical proof that the kristjan church was founded on the teachings of a person named jesus. As a matter of fact, if you look at history and modern historical evidence, it shows the exact opposite.



Finally, european pagan practices are just as old, if not older than abrahamic religion. This is also historially provable, considering that the pagan practices can mostly be traced back to indo-european peoples, which we know were in place well before the abrahamic peoples. Historical Fact.



I would suggest that before making negative comments about others, that you do some deeper research into your opinions, as many of us do study history, sociology, anthropolgy, etc. and therefore are quite well versed in what is and is not provable and historically accurate.



Wassail
http://cajungypsy.blogspot.com

PapaCoyotesGirl
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Los Angeles, California
Contact:

Post by PapaCoyotesGirl » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:59 am

Read tacitus and cesar for a broader point of view.


I would rather not. The romans were notorious for demonizing the Celts and much of what they wrote concerning them consisted of little more than blatant lies.



Out of curiosity, are you norwegian? Because I do not see you using a nordic spelling for any other words. And if you are not norwegian, I have plenty of norwegian friends who would be pretty offended by your misuse of their language.


As a matter of fact, if you look at history and modern historical evidence, it shows the exact opposite.


I figure the Bible is good enough proof for that. Whether Jesus was up and about is debatable, but the cornerstone of the Catholic Church is the communion and that comes straight out of the Bible. As for the various Christian and Orthodox Churches, those are pretty firmly rooted in the Bible as well. Especially the Coptic Orthodox Church.



Also, historically, when the hebrew tribes were still nomadic and their faith was not yet fully formed the european peoples were also nomadic and practicing religions dramatically different from those practiced today. Or do you honestly believe that what is done today (as far as european practices go, let's say) is an accurate representation of what was done thousands of years ago by people living under completely different conditions?

User avatar
runewulf
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 820
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:38 pm
Location: USA
Zodiac: Scorpio
Contact:

Post by runewulf » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:10 am

I am celtic and nordic in descent and practice nordic paganism. And as far as your friends being offended, well, that's their problem. I don't "misuse" the nordic languages and I have many friends from nordic/germanic countries who have absolutely no problem with how I write things. Oh, and norse is not norwegian, norwegian is a modern off-shoot of norse. The closest living language to norse is Icelandic.



As far as the romans demonizing, while I will admit that they often were not flattering, they are also a main source of historical documentation on many cultures, the europeans being one such culture. Also, you can see in a lot of the various writings a respect, if not love, of some of the peoples and their practices.



No, things as they are practiced now days are not identical to what was practiced in old times, however, a lot of the roots of such can be traced back to original practices. Some good research into indo-europeans shows this, both for celt and norse peoples. The practices may not be identical, but often the roots of those practices are.



Wassail
http://cajungypsy.blogspot.com

Nyara
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:52 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Nyara » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:02 am

I personally am an eclectic pagan. Although I don't mix the goddess and gods (unless I am showing how different traditions practice), there is a simularity to each religion. Every religion is based on two things, the belief in a higher power(s) and it's used as a tool to explain and cope with what is happening in our world. Looking at religion in that sence, all of the religions are valid. The age of a religion shouldn't matter. Each one changes to fit the current culture the practicing people reside. Religion, the devine, by what ever name you give it(them) is what makes humanity unique. My greatest wish is for poeple to repsect and learn from the differences of each religion. By doing that we will have a better understanding of people as a whole.
Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

History is written by the winners.



"She will remeber you when men are books written by rabbits" - Schmendrick The Magician

User avatar
davisherm
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:00 pm
Location: The Wood
Zodiac: Aries
Contact:

Post by davisherm » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:37 pm

I have to agree with Nyara here.



While I am personally at odds with the Christian Church, it's a matter of the persecution I've experienced at the hands of some of her followers, and not a matter of their faith. There's nothing wrong with the faith, itself. A person should have faith in what is right for them. For a good many people, that faith is in a god from one of the many monotheistic belief structures, whether Judeism, Christianity, Islam, Latter Day Saintism, Jehova's Witnessism, or what have you. For others, such as ourselves, it's different. We pagans, as a group, worship many gods and goddesses, and have wildly varying beliefs. But the fact remains that, in nearly all of the faiths, there is a higher power that is recognized.



I would like to say that we all worship the same diety. We just see him or her in a different way... however they chose to appear to us. My goddess revealed herself to me in the form of a child, which is not unlike how jesus first showed himself to his believers. Who's to say that we don't all have the same god, just by many differnt names?
"I just want to play on my Panpipes..." Cake

User avatar
Asatru in Arizona
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:50 am
Contact:

Post by Asatru in Arizona » Sat Apr 03, 2004 2:42 pm

I would like to say that we all worship the same diety. We just see him or her in a different way... however they chose to appear to us. My goddess revealed herself to me in the form of a child, which is not unlike how jesus first showed himself to his believers. Who's to say that we don't all have the same god, just by many differnt names?


I would have to disagree with that notion. I am a staunch polytheist, and I know who my gods and goddesses are. To say that we are all worshipping the same thing is an insult to many, for the notion fails to appreciate the value of individual worldviews and their gods. Different cultures approach spirituality in radically different ways, and sameness is rather a New Age fallacy in this context.

[/quote]
The many are the many. Respect them as such.



Boing! Boom-Tschak!



Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal.

Die Sonne scheint mit glitzer Strahl.

User avatar
davisherm
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:00 pm
Location: The Wood
Zodiac: Aries
Contact:

Post by davisherm » Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:01 pm

heh, I was just passing ideas around. I have my Goddess and my God and the others I know have their own, also.
"I just want to play on my Panpipes..." Cake

User avatar
Asatru in Arizona
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:50 am
Contact:

Post by Asatru in Arizona » Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:23 pm

Go ahead and pass ideas around if you wish, I'm not saying you shouldn't. All I ask is that you also recognize my right to critique what I disagree with, and I'll recognize your right to do the same.
The many are the many. Respect them as such.



Boing! Boom-Tschak!



Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal.

Die Sonne scheint mit glitzer Strahl.

User avatar
runewulf
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 820
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:38 pm
Location: USA
Zodiac: Scorpio
Contact:

Post by runewulf » Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:59 pm

Diety is diety, but we all interact with our personal dieties in a given way and they each have their own attributes. Weather they are all aspects/extensions of some diefic core, or individual dieties, no one can say with absolute certainty. You can argue for either case adamantly, but that doesn't make it true or false. That's why it's called "faith". Belief is the core necessity.



wassail
http://cajungypsy.blogspot.com

User avatar
autumnraven13
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:17 pm
Location: Minnesota...brr
Contact:

Post by autumnraven13 » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:43 am

runewulf wrote:Diety is diety, but we all interact with our personal dieties in a given way and they each have their own attributes. Weather they are all aspects/extensions of some diefic core, or individual dieties, no one can say with absolute certainty. You can argue for either case adamantly, but that doesn't make it true or false. That's why it's called "faith". Belief is the core necessity.



wassail


Here, Here runewulf! You summed it all up quite eloquently.
"I'm advanced!" Gir from Invader Zim

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest