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Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:23 pm
by Ragnar
[quote="Ever-Pagan"]If we accept the belief that Nature is intelligent - that Life, despite whatever its innate level of sentience, is harmonized and organized - we have little choice than to give credit to a Creator. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that the Goddess Herself evolved and therefore had less-than-divine control over Her realm of the natural.

The Norse belief is that the Gods/esses have and do evolve. We are not a stale religion, we move with the times. The Gods move with us, or us with them.
Remember that Ymir was the giant that gave birth to the races of Gods. The Gods then learned and developed from there until Heimdallr came along. Heimdallr went on his journeys and created the three races (classes of men). But NOT at the same time. Only when man kind, and Heimdallr/Rig himself, had reached a level of ability did Rig come along again and create the next level.
The whole PURPOSE of Norse/Asatru is that we keep learning and developing this includes the dieties. One of the most important differences between us an the monothiests, is that our Gods/esses are not perfect, they are evolving biengs that can make mistakes. We can also laugh at ourselves and with the Gods at their mistakes. (Such as Japanese motor-cycles, and maccaronni cheese.)
I also hope that this mail goes some way into getting the topic back on subjecrt as requested by rain forest moon.

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:02 pm
by Baylee
I feel kinda stupid, cause I've posted this question before but in the wrong places. :-?
I am very science based, and frankly I completely believe in evolution. I do believe however that there is a divine source, but I don't believe in reincarnation, or creation...
But I do believe in spirit, and of course, magick.
Well it will be a pleasant surprise if I do wind up in summerland! :lol:
-Baylee

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:36 am
by Ragnar
Hi Baylee,
I think it was Divershem that wrote on this board, that he believed in evolution, but that did not meen that it was not sparked off by something divine. I think I agree with that, and from your last you seem to as well. I prefer to believe in the big bang theory. So the question comes when did we start evolving? One theory does not exclude the other, unless one is totaly fascist and believe ones leader can make no mistakes. I.E christian and muslim "fundies". oh, and Joey witnesses, who seem totaly confussed.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:11 am
by Rain ForestMoon
Just a quick one on christian fundies and evolution, which they don't accept.

If ever one of them tries to convince you that evolution does not happen ask them this:

"If all humans are descended from "adam and eve" (as they believe), then how come there are different races. Surely they evolved....."

Blessings

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:03 pm
by Baylee
Hi Ragnar,
Yeah, I completely believe in the big boom theory, as well as that it was sparked off by a divine source. I don't understand how Christians refuse to consider anything else that is frankly, right under our noses. Like Rain ForestMoon said, we would all be about the same height, have the same skin color, and facial features if we didn't evolve. If there was evidence that the universe was made in 7 days, then I'll believe it. The fact that there are stars millions of years older than earth doesn't matter. :lol:
One of the many reasons paganism caught my interest is because there is no RIGHT way to practice it. AND WE DON'T CONVERT! That is the one thing about Christians, at least the ones that believe in converting, that I despise. :-?
I'm so glad to be able to talk to other pagans! Thank you all so much! :-D
-Baylee

a paradox...

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:34 am
by dragonflydrummer
Of course if Evolution is actual,
then how do you explain
a clearly devolving form of life, like fundamentalist xtians ??? :lol:

Evolving not Converting. I like it ! Like someone who was thinking once said: "You can only change yourself..."

:happy6: :laughing4: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing4: :happy6:

Re: a paradox...

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:00 pm
by Rain ForestMoon
dragonflydrummer wrote:Of course if Evolution is actual,
then how do you explain
a clearly devolving form of life, like fundamentalist xtians ??? :lol:
The answer would have to be that even they (the fundamentalist christians) are adapted to survive in their particular environment.
Having said that it is worth noting that there are many adaptations that turn out to be evolutionary dead-ends. Just let's hope they reach that stage soon....

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:24 pm
by scoia
(a bit of a latecomer to this thread)

A certainly agree with Luciferish, if we acsribe to paganism itself, than it surely follows that we accept the will of the divine in creation.

I believe (or to be more accurate, I feel it in my bones) that the world as we know it now was created much like child is now. Two forces converging, sparking, to semi-unconsciously create something different and potentially greater than themselves. I see the natural world and the sciences as revealing the bones of the divine that are contantly growing and shifting with time.

You could call it a version of the 'big bang' theory :-D

Seriously though, I do see the world as a physical representation of the gods themselves, and creation as the incarnation of the divine.

Leggo my Eggo...

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:33 am
by dragonflydrummer
Scoia wrote:
A certainly agree with Luciferish, if we acsribe to paganism itself, than it surely follows that we accept the will of the divine in creation.

Well, maybe yes / maybe no. I can't pretend to really know the essence of the origins of the Cosmos -- as much as I'd like to. I don't think it is essential to paganism to accept divine will in creation. It is just as likely that The Goddesses/Gods and other power-entities are just as much adrift in this vast wave of Space/Time as we are. In fact I sort of like them better that way ... sentient like us, and in their own ways beholding to the incomparable Tao. Maybe there was no beginning.

Of course then again -- when I was small and would uncover an anthill while playing I would look down on the scurry of their lives and wonder if when the Gods look down on us -- weren't we like the ants and the Gods like us -- in terms of relative power and wisdom. By extension -- it's perfectly possible that the Gods would also have their Gods and the whole Universe would open out like a series of Russian Dolls. The question then would be which sets of gods did the making? Most likely some unimaginably giant ants someplace... heh heh heh...

Maybe the chicken came first? Or not... :wallbash:

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:24 am
by Rain ForestMoon
This thread has been dormant for a while, but I came across an item in the latest copy of the "New Scientist" that I thought I might share with you.

"An open letter to the State Board of Education in Kansas circulated by Bobby Henderson, a "concerned citizen:

"Let us remember that there are mutiple theories of intelligent design. I and many others around the world are on the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him. We fromally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories (creationism and evolution).""

That sort of thing should get the fundies going....

Blessings

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:15 am
by runewulf
heh heh... yeah, I'm sure that'll stir up some interest =D> :lol:

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:41 pm
by morgana
Yeah, I dunno if anybody else heard, but apparently they actually did succeed in passing some sort of law in Texas that Creationism has to be taught along side Evolutionary Theory. If I was a parent, I'd either be moving or home schooling my kid. #-o

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:47 am
by 2Crunchy
morgana wrote:Yeah, I dunno if anybody else heard, but apparently they actually did succeed in passing some sort of law in Texas that Creationism has to be taught along side Evolutionary Theory. If I was a parent, I'd either be moving or home schooling my kid. #-o
Ugh! Reason #2784 that I homeschool my children. :-? While I don't necessarilly buy completely into Evolution it has a place being taught in science (certainly taught as a THEORY and not as a proven FACT), but creationism isn't science at all. I think it falls under religion or at the very best philosophy, neither of which, in my opinion, has any place in public school.

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:35 pm
by runewulf
Let's face it, evolution is real, it's proven, not to the extent that a lot of folks want to claim it, but evolution does happen. Now, does this exclude some divine spark bringing about creation ? non, not at all... does this mean that some divinity/spirit/diety/ies/etc aren't guiding evolution/individuals/society? non, can't prove that either... however, one thing science teaches is "cause and effect". Well, without cause, there could never have been evolution, heck, no creation at all, therefore, something caused both creation and evolution, could be diety/ies, could be something else, although some kinda divine spark is what makes sense, when you think about the void, zippo, then "BANG!"... what would cause an empty void to go "BANG!"?

Both have their place and likely truths

Just something to think on....

wassail und wunjo

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:59 pm
by Rain ForestMoon
The "interesting" thing about this christian creationism is that is is all based on a misunderstanding.

The christian "old testament" bible was written by jews for jews.

So the first question to ask is: Do the jews believe in creationism? The answer is no. Generally they have no problem with evolution at all.

Why not?

Christians need to consider the possibility that when they appropriated the "jewish bible" they failed to appropriate the key to understanding it.

If the whole issue were not so serious (because the fundies seek to re-define science) it would be very funny indeed.