Why discriminate?

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Rog

Why discriminate?

Post by Rog » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:38 pm

I notice in reading through some of this stuff is that it is always CHRISTIANS. Like there are no other religions. Give me a break.

I happen to be a Christian, and maybe not a good one but the flaws in the logic stun even a stupid redneck like me.

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Post by Debbrah » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:42 am

Which flaws/what logic? I will need more exact examples to provide anything more than a general defense.

You are correct, first of all, that there are other religions to which many of the comments could be directed. However, Christianity is the primary one most of us in the United States have much (or any) experience unless we are not Christian. Christianity is also the one from which most of us on this board, and most Pagan boards, have experienced the most general and/or extreme forms of persecution/discrimination and simple disagreement. As many comments are either directly antecdotal or based on personal experience, this leads to most of our commentary focusing on Christianity rather than other potentially appropriate religions.

Second, many of us are ex-Christians who left for good reasons. And some of us are bitter. It isn't pretty, but venting does occur.
"There's not much that's contrary to nature if you just know how to coax her along a little."- Mad Amos Malone (A. D. Foster)

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Post by Kystar » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:01 am

The majority of the bigotry and the harassment in my pagan life came from Christians.

There is a message boards where everything I say is called wrong becaues I"m not quoting the Bible or talking about christ...and it's a public forum.

I've had Christian coworkers who found out trying to "gently guide me back to god"
I've had professed Christian classmates in college and high school avoid me and go to the medieval practices of things like crossing themselves when I walked by or doing the sign against the evil eye to me.
I've has Christian activist street preachers actually try to detain me for a lengthy dissertation why I was going to burn in hell. He wouldn't get out of my way and was yelling at me until a passer-by told him to let the young lady go or he'd get a cop!
I've had person I thought was becoming a friend, Catholic, trying to convince my other friends not to listen to my opinions as my mind was clouded by the devil. Never mind that he swore and wenched and boozed and lied and cheated...as long as he went to church on sunday he was better than me!

I have a Jewish friend who asks me to do rune readings for her.
But, credit where credit's due, I have a christian friend who is going into a seminary who has told me that though I'll always be welcome at his church, he feels that it isn't his place to try and force me to lose my faith...as long as I have faith in something...he's cool with it...even helped me with runes for horoscopes in college once.

oh well.
I've rambled on enough.
Like was said before, the majority of our negative experiences come from Christians who can't accept that other faiths are equally valid.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by Vetle » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:42 am

I must agree with the previous comments.

It was very noble of Debbrah to admit that alot of us are bitter because it's completely true. I, for one, am actually extremely bitter because of the fact that they have put me through so many negative experiences. If you would like a more exaustive (but by no means complete) explanation, please see my posts in the "Are they all that bad?" topic.

However, I must say I have met some decent Christians. However, my past has made my standards for the classification of a Christian as decent pretty low. Basically, they are decent if they accept my religion and don't try to convert me and are intelligent enough to look past the severe misinformation that they have received regarding us pagans. When someone asks me what religion I am, I'm afraid to tell them because of what happened to me before. However, college students seem to be more accepting in this sense. I actually get along very well with people at school, despite religious differences. I use level of intellect as a discriminatory value, rather than religion.

It's the level of education. I'm not trying to bash your religion or anything but there have been various studies made showing that people with more education are less inclined to believe in things like Creationism. I'm not going to attempt to attach an explanation to this because it's not my place but it's some food for thought. With that considered, consider my comment about college students being more accepting.

Is anything starting to click? It's not Christians that we have a problem with. It's those who serve as examples of bigotry that we have a problem with. Yes, we have a fundies section and yes we do tend to bash Christians but, more often than not, we bash them on an individual, not group basis. For example, "such and such did such and such to me" as opposed to "Christians always do such and such," which you're not terribly likely to hear on this board. In fact, someone who does say something like this might get flamed. Also, notice that we open up our Fundies section to ALL fundies, even pagan ones.

If you still believe that we are antichristian here, perhaps you should cite some examples that you feel have portrayed intentionally a negative image of Christians in general and not just individuals. I can think of one or two right now but most of them have been against individuals.

If you'd like to cite the whole business about the music I write that bashes Christianity, please consider the following:
1) I do it as a means of releasing anger, which you would be able to tell if you heard it
2) I write it from a historical perspective; the characters in my songs had reason to hate Christians because...well, just study the middle ages and think about it for a moment
3) These thoughts are my own and not representative of the pagan community at large; you can't use them to judge all of us as a whole.

And maybe some other individuals might be less than nice about Christianity but you can't see them as a representation of Pagans as a whole, just like we can't see individual Christians as a representation of Christians as a whole.
"I just hope angels in the forest
Saw me praying in my own soul
Death is unfair - That's real pain
Remoun you...Am I almost dead?
I miss my hope; My will to live
My last farewell forever, all alone"

-Anita Auglend

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Post by Willow » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:43 pm

I also feel a need to reply. I identitfy myself as a pagan Christian. And this can be a difficult thing to do. i recently moved from a pentacostal church to a United church and my pastor told my Mom they could have a prayer meeting for me.
I have an issue, when I go to church I hear uneducted bashing of Homosexuals, liberals, feminists,wiccans, pro abortionists. not to get political but I fit into all these categories. How is this God's love? the other people in this forum were correct instating statistiacally that we are more likely to run into Christians. I go to a very multicultural school and connect with a very quiet pagan group. mainly because we get labelled as freaks. I have been more hurt by Christians than any other group. Why don't you come in, joion our discussion and show us God's love. Give us a christian to talk good about.

But I ge the feeling that you are a one timer. Come in once, say your opinipon then leave. I have trouble with Christians who are unwilling to engage somthing different than their own beliefs for a prolonged period. please come in, as i would love to have an educated discussion with you. Not all Christians are bad, just like not all Pagans are good. And I would love to have some more good examples.
blessings
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by Wbdsgnr1 » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:29 pm

I agree, this person is a one timer and probably long gone and not reading any of these replies.
Why bother?


blessed be
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Post by Vetle » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:32 pm

I hope that, when the next one timer Christian comes along, they read this and actually consider the things said here. That's why I took the time to write that post. I don't think Rog will be back hopefully Rog II or whoever comes next will read this. I don't think misinformation will be solved unless we're willing to provide education.
"I just hope angels in the forest
Saw me praying in my own soul
Death is unfair - That's real pain
Remoun you...Am I almost dead?
I miss my hope; My will to live
My last farewell forever, all alone"

-Anita Auglend

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Post by Raven » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:55 pm

Yeh, he might be back. Probobly not, but he might be...

And, on a similar but completely different note, Citing the Bible to convince us of our "wrongdoings"
Does that bother you all too? I have no problem with somebody citing the Bible to convince another Christian of something, but to me the Bible is nothing but a very good story. You can't convince me with religious text from....wait for it.... A DIFFERENT RELIGION. Its like trying to tell me in French why i shouldn't speak English... it just doesn't work !

Like you Vetle, this is a word to all the Rog's that will come to our little board and tell us we are wrong.
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Post by Ferre » Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:16 am

My ancestors have been persecuted through the centuries by Christians and this is documented in our family archives that date back to the years 1100. Our culture has been nearly completely whiped out and our most holy rituals (and herbs) have been, and are, criminalized by them and their representatives until this very day.

MY ancestors have not been persecuted by Buddhists, Not by Hindus, not by any other than the "Judeo-Christian" doctrines.

So when there is a little biased opinion towards Christianity and the Judeo-Christian doctrines, it might be because people like me look upon those religions in a kind of similar manner as some people look at nazism. It brings dead and destruction "in the name of love and freedom".

Excuse me as this is my first post on these forums but I feel the need to add my two cents. I also do not intend to insult anyone personally with this post but I really believe that Christians do not really understand how deep the wounds are that they have left, and still leave, to the people who do not bow to their set of morals and rules for this planet. I also think that in general, on a personal level, they have no idea on how huge the impact of their actions is on those who are "not in their grace". Check back history and you'll find that impact to be quite destructive.

Follow your bliss.

Ferre

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Post by Ever-Pagan » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:27 am

A good first post, Ferre. Well said. =D>

I am personally very jaded by Christianity not necessarily for their theological shortcomings but instead by their arrogance and intellectual fallacy. In every case when I present an idea that is contradictory to scripture, I invariably get a pat (canned) answer as to why I am wrong.

Let me share a few:

Q: Why is it that Christians are the only one going to 'heaven'? Why not Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, and numerous other religious groups who have left a much smaller death toll in their wake?

A: Because Christ said HE is the way to the father and ONLY through Him do you get to heaven.

Q: Zoroaster said the same thing. Are Zoroastrians going to hell too?
A: Yes.

Q: Why? Their prophet/teacher said the same thing as your prophet/teacher.
A: Their prophet/teacher didn't come back from the dead. His tomb is still occupied.

Q: Not according to their beliefs.
A: Then they stole the idea from Christianity. Satan is deceiving modern man with this false religion.


We could go on like this forever and the Christian will still claim to be the open-minded one while never presenting any extra-biblical support for their position. Christians seem to believe they have the key to eternal life and a joyful life on earth. No amount of arguing can undo the brainwashing they have endured for so long.

Why discriminate? A christian is the only person who has gotten in my face and told me I was going to burn in everlasting fire if I didn't believe the way he does. It's pretty crystal to me why Christians bear the brunt of our ire.
Jesus is coming back. And boy, is he PISSED!

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Post by Debbrah » Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:41 pm

Ever-Pagan wrote:Q: Zoroaster said the same thing. Are Zoroastrians going to hell too?
A: Yes.

Q: Why? Their prophet/teacher said the same thing as your prophet/teacher.
A: Their prophet/teacher didn't come back from the dead. His tomb is still occupied.

Q: Not according to their beliefs.
A: Then they stole the idea from Christianity. Satan is deceiving modern man with this false religion.
A tangent, but I love the explination that other faiths stole things in advance.... It cracks me up every time.
"There's not much that's contrary to nature if you just know how to coax her along a little."- Mad Amos Malone (A. D. Foster)

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Post by Ever-Pagan » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:36 am

My personal favorite is the "his tomb is still occupied" argument. All other religious figures are not the true path to God because their "tomb is still occupied]. Then the fundies go on to declare how hundreds of people saw Jesus after his crucifixion and watched him ascend into heaven.

All according to the Bible, of course.

Extra-Biblical evidence is not permissable.
Jesus is coming back. And boy, is he PISSED!

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Post by Ragnar » Mon May 02, 2005 2:51 am

What I love is their circular argument. "God exists because the bible sais so", "Who wrote the bible?" "god!", "well HE would, wouldn't he?" Total blank looks all around.
I agree with Vetles "education theory". Monothiests in general seem to have severe difficulties in under standing ANYTHING that is not described for them in their "little red book". Any subtelty of argument, or even a verbal smack in the nose with a tac nuke, seems to go RIGHT over their heads.

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Post by Kelreth » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:12 pm

i think the fact that the bible is a piece of written work is enough to prove any aurgument with a rational being
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

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Post by Ragnar » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:55 pm

"i think the fact that the bible is a piece of written work is enough to prove any argument with a rational being."

So...does that mean you are saying that, because it's a piece of written work it must be right? Or that because it's only written work, it can not be taken seriously?

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